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Previous Next Up Topic Public / General Discussion / Engine Won't start after shutting car off (16146 hits)
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-01 00:48
I have been having trouble with my 72 bug!  I have a stock 1600 with a Webber 2 barrel carb.  009 Dist, with a flame thrower electronic ignition system.  It has been working fine for about 8 years or so.  However, over this summer when I get in my car to go somewhere I shut it off for what ever reason and it won't start.  Not a gas problem (ruled that out).  I think it seems to be the coil (a flame thrower epoxy filled).  I replaced the coil with another and seemed to work for awhile.  Today I drove my car to work and back home again.  Made one stop on way home and car would not start when I was ready to go!!  I carry some either spray just in case and sprayed it and not even a pop.  When I opened the hood seemed the coil was very hot to the touch.  I had some ice handy in baggies and packed the coil for about 1 hour then it started and I went home!  What do I do to rectify my problem?  Not sure what to do cause I thought the issue was fixed when I change the coil.  Is the electronic ignition going south?  HELP!!!

Thanks,
Rick
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-01 23:02
So I tried the car again tonight and went for a good hard (fast) ride (around the block, 15 min.)  Parked the car in my garage waited 10 min. and tried to start car.  Car would not start again! I waited one hour and had rear hood open then tried to start car.  Car started hard but it started I ran it for about 30 seconds then felt coil and coil was still hot.  I'm not sure why this issue just started this year but even with a new coil it started about 3 weeks after installing the new coil.  Can the Flame Thrower that I have in it be causing hot spark that makes coil run hotter?  Need help on this one.

Rick
By Brad H 1498 Date 2015-09-01 23:34
Does your coil need an external ballast resistor? Some coils do, and if there isn't one, they run very hot and eventually burn out. The ignition module won't affect the coil. It's merely an on/off switch to create spark. Make sure all your tune up parts are in good condition. Old worn out parts REALLY tax an ignition system, especially the coil.

brad
By Jeffrey P 655 Date 2015-09-01 23:35
What is the ohm rating for the coil? Have you checked for spark during this no start period?

You said you have ruled out fuel...how exactly did you do that? If your engine is running real hot then you might be boiling the fuel out of the bowl during its hot soak time.

Have you tried to run it hard...let it sit for 10 minutes...and then check for a strong squirt of fuel before you try to start it?
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-03 00:23
Brad and jEFF, I have not checked the spark during the off time (next to do) and I ruled out fuel by spraying starting fluid in carb and trying to start (bot even a pop).  I'm thinking the volt rating for the coil is 40,000 .
I have run it hard but have not checked for squirt of fuel.  I iced coil down after a hard run and then it started after 30min.
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-03 00:29
I believe my coil has an internal resistor.  I am planning on putting a new ignition system in it along with a new coil.  Do you have any recommendations on a set up for my bug?  I am also thinking of adding in an electronic fuel pump, any recommendations with that as well? I'm totally frustrated with this problem with my coil.
By Jeffrey P 655 Date 2015-09-03 02:48
Do you have a part number for the coil? Before you start just throwing away money calm down a bit and get us some details on what exactly you have. Both for the coil and for the module.

Why the desire for an electric fuel pump?
By Brad H 1498 Date 2015-09-03 04:26
A stock fuel pump with support 150hp no need to go electric till after that.

brad
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-04 00:08
The reason for the electric fuel pump is because I don't see much in the way of fuel in my fuel filter.  I look at other cars at shows and they all have fuel in them and though (afraid) I am not getting enough fuel for the 2 bbl webber carb?
My coil is a Flame Thrower II and it is0.6 ohm. Does this help?
By Jeffrey P 655 Date 2015-09-04 03:37
A properly functioning stock VW fuel pump will supply more than enough fuel for the Weber. No question.

Your module is a Flame Thrower as well? You know the model number?
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-04 21:29 Edited 2015-09-04 21:31
I don't know the model. And yes the whole system is Flame thrower. It was a kit and I bought this bug for spare parts and it was attached to the engine in a 009 dist. I removed the dist. and stuck it in my engine (about 10-12 years ago).  I think I am going to remove the Flame thrower and go to a different type.  I hear that there are some good ones for the VW?  Do you have any recommendations for this?  I just want to get away from the points and always having to adjusting them.  Was the Ohms 0.6 ok for my application?  It puts out 45K volts.  Too much?  I would like to go back to the blue coil and some sort of ignition system.
By Brad H 1498 Date 2015-09-05 02:22
It's common for the fuel filter to look empty, don't worry about it. I ran a stock pump on a 2332cc motor with 48mm IDFs and had no problem with fuel starvation.

If you're going to switch ignitions I'd go with Pertronix or Compufire. The rest are just junk.

brad
By bob P 3255 Date 2015-09-08 23:34
I've run the same "Stock" fuel pump in my buggy for decades, with very little fuel showing in the fuel filter. That original pump is more than ample.
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-10 23:15
So I just found out yesterday that the coil they sent me was not the EPOXY FILLED coil I was suppose to get.  It was an oil filled coil.  They are sending the correct one.  I understand that when you invert the coil (upside down) that you run the risk of overheating the coil winding on the inside?  I hope this is the case for my problem.  Thoughts?
By Jeffrey P 655 Date 2015-09-11 13:35
Well having the wrong coil can certainly cause issues. That's why we ask so many questions and why its vitally important to know exactly what you have.

Trying to diagnosis a problem over the internet requires exact information. We cannot confirm anything via a visual inspection.

When you get the new coil keep the part number handy.
By Brad H 1498 Date 2015-09-12 15:50
I have run coils at every angle imaginable and never had a problem with them overheating. I've mounted coils terminals up sideways, at 45*, on 429 Cobrajets and other huge domestic engines behind the carb out of any possible airflow and baking in the intake valley of a big cast iron V8. I've found coils don't care how they're mounted.

brad
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-15 21:25
I totally agree with what you and Jeff are saying.  I don;t understand what is going on.  So today Tuesday the 15th I installed another coil on the car last night and thought I would drive it to work today 18 miles.  I made it to work.  That was a good thing.  However, the ride home was not so good.!!!  The car shut down on me at about 12 miles from work.  I don't think it's the coil.  I am now totally baffled.  So what do you think about the electronic ignition being being bad?  It's about 15years old (Flame thrower).  I'm thinking about going back to the old points.  Unless someone has a better idea? (hopeful).
By Jeffrey P 655 Date 2015-09-15 23:01
Did you test for spark when it died?

Points would be a cheap test that's for sure.
By bob P 3255 Date 2015-09-16 00:17
I know electronic ignitions and all these updates are the thing today, But. I still use the original set-up equipment replacing as necessary. It has always worked great especially since I don't seek Hi Performance on my Buggy. I look at it this way; A couple of friends of mine are running Higher Perf engines with some of the goodies that go along with them. Dual Webbers, Add-On Oil Filters, Electronic Ignitions, Hot Coils, Electronic Fuel Pumps, etc. When we go on cruises, we all run the same speed, go to the same places, etc. and at the end of the day, I have used half the gas as they did, etc.. Seems they are always tweaking too.  To each his own, but I think I have had a lot of fun without the hassle of the add-ons. Just my two cents, minus tax............................

Good Luck to you regardless....................
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-16 10:15
I did test and yes there was spark.  It started about 2 hours after it cooled off.  Can it be the module?  I am going to change it around (new ignition system of some sort).  Baffled!
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-16 10:17
Thanks for the wise words!  As with  the rest of the guys.  Way too many problems with such and easy car.  I have to say I am learning as I go.
By Jeffrey P 655 Date 2015-09-16 13:45
99 times out of 100 its something that you think you know is right but its actually wrong.

Since a points swap if about $5 I would try that.

And when you tested for spark was it right when it cut out or after the two hours? If it cut out, and you tested for spark and got spark, then its not the module. If you let it cool down for 2 hours and then tested for spark that doesn't help the diagnosis.

One other thing....kinda far fetched but still possible.....valves adjusted correctly?
By Ron S 3875 Date 2015-09-16 14:07
You need to reset and start from ground zero,, forget what you think you checked and approach this as if it just happened.
Start with spark when it fails, but do not forget to see it the ignition is actually getting power when it does not work.

I spent a week chasing circles on a engine ignition to finally find out the column switch was intermittent in start mode.
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-17 00:27
Valves are adjusted correct, spark was at the time engine cut out within 10 min.  I am going to strip it down this weekend and see what I might be able to find.  Still baffled.
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-17 00:29
Thanks for that!  I did not even think about the column switch.  Now when you talk about the column switch you must be talking about the key switch?
By Jeffrey P 655 Date 2015-09-17 02:16
So it cut out. You waited for 10 minutes & checked for spark? Did it start at that time? Or did you have to wait longer before it restarted?
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-17 23:02
Had to wait a couple hours before I got it started.
By Jeffrey P 655 Date 2015-09-18 03:24
Ok...hold on.

So the buggy cut out. Within 10 minutes you checked for spark and it had spark but it would not start even with spark for a couple of hours?
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-09-24 23:28
Yes it would not start.  Today I put in a new coil, and a new electronic ignition module, and a new gas filter (one I need to put in awhile ago).  I plan to go to a car show on Sunday if it makes it.  I did see tonight after test driving it I had trouble with the key being able to make contact to turn it over ( about 8-9 times before it caught).  Would this have any connection (short)?  It is getting close to winter and pulling car off road to get it ready for next year.  I got a lot of work ahead of me.  Thoughts?
By Jeffrey P 655 Date 2015-09-25 13:27 Edited 2015-09-25 13:30
Well if it had spark right after it cut out and would not start then I doubt it was related to your coil or module.

Motors need spark, fuel and air (OK..and compression). If its cutting out and you are immediately testing for spark and fuel and you have both then its one of the following:

1. Valves too tight
2. Not checking for spark correctly. Was it a weak or a strong spark
3. Not checking for fuel correctly. Strong spurt from the carb?

Normally I would say that the switch could be a problem but the switch has two primary function in running. First it turns on power to the coil. Second it activates the starter. So when you tested it after it cut out and you had spark that would suggest that the switch was giving the coil power. And if it turned over you had power to the starter.
By ManxBug Date 2015-09-26 13:26
The ignition switch in my bus was giving me a similar issue. I wired in a push start button.
I turn the key to "on" and use the push start button. Perhaps you can wire in a temporary push start to test it.
By Rick M 3613 Date 2015-10-01 10:21
I hot wired it and it fired and ran.  I have a new ignition switch coming.  Low cost just got to figure how to get lock out to change it.  From what I can see I need to remove the steering wheel to get to the push pin?
Previous Next Up Topic Public / General Discussion / Engine Won't start after shutting car off (16146 hits)

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