By Thomas B 2944 Date 2012-03-11 16:51
Good Morning Guys,
I have not been working too much on the buggy of late as the weather is too cold to do the POR-15 thing. I need to coat the inside of the tunnel before I can weld the last access hole that I cut on the tunnel to repair lines. So I have been doing some planning from the computer and the local Napa store. I do have some questions for the Buggy Bunch.
There seems to be a lot of different lengths in cables, E-brake, clutch and accelerator cables to be exact. The accelerator and clutch cables are listed as different lengths and not by year. It stands to reason to me that the buggy has been "cut" so It would mean that I will need to shorten the cables to the lengths that fits "my application". So my question is; which one do I order? Am I missing something here or what? Maybe I just do the Columbus Method and land on one.
I have a 1960 pan with a 1969 transaxle and a 73-74 engine with 14-1/4 inches removed from the belly pan area. Should I purchase the emergency brake cables for the 1960 or 1969? As I have to cut the cables anyway, I am leaning toward getting 1969 cables so the "major" end will fit properly. Will I run into any problems on the other end?
With the above set up I want to use front brakes cylinders from a 1969 Beatle on the 69 IRS unit (22mm) and rear brake cylinders from a 1960 Beatle on the 60 link pin front end (17mm). So this would mean that I should purchase front cylinders for the rear IRS from a 69 and rear cylinders from a 60 for the link pin front end. Is this correct or am I getting mixed up and will the cylinders just bolt in or will I need to modify the backing plates?
As my rear IRS is a 1969 I am trying to locate spring plate bushings. I suspect that I need to get it apart before I make a decision on what parts I need. I would like to order the replacement bushings so that I can reassemble it right off. Problem is there seems to be many types and variations to choose from. Some seem to be stock while others seem to be "new and improved". Is the inner different than the outer? Should I use "Knobby" or round like the stock one in it now? Confusing!
In a previous post Jeff indicated that there are complete brake kits available at SoCal. With my buggy being a conglomerate of years, which, I suspect is common, how would I choose? Would they "make-up" a kit for me to fill my needs or is it "one size fits all" with no substitutions? I know that a phone call would more than likely clear this question up but thought that others make have run into this as well.
By Joseph S 2595 Date 2012-03-11 22:06
Do you have pictures posted of your buggy showing sepension componets and chassis?
It sounds like someone has done some changing as for converting to and IRS rear supension and pictures of what you have will help.
For wheel cylinders, yes switching to the 22mm for the rear IRS and using the 1968 and later 17mm rear wheel cylinders in the front.
Stock for a 1960 Bug used the wider front shoes (same width as 1968 and later 4lug) and a 22mm wheel cylinder. In the stock 1960 Bug in the rear it uses a narrower shoe with a 19mm wheel cylinder.
You may or may not have the same width brake shoes front and rear depending on how conversion was done.
As for rear spring plate bushing/grommets it depends on whether what you are using now since there are different way of going. In the past I have used cut down swing axle spring plates to make IRS plates to use the shorter torsion bars. Seeing what you have will help. The Knobby bushing comes in different ID sizes depending on what spring plate you have.
By Thomas B 2944 Date 2012-03-11 23:26
By Thomas B 2944 Date 2012-03-12 00:02
I am not sure what you would like to see for pictures but my build in in the "Show Case" under "Bump Stop Repair". I do have a few pics of the buggy as I was disassembling. The story is that the previous owner's original build was on a 1960 chassis but when the next owner purchased it they had a chance to get a 1969 type 1 to "chop" the rear end off for the IRS set-up. The 69 engine didn't last long and so they purchased a 73-74 engine from a salvage yard. In a nut shell this is why the difficulty. But on the other hand that is about par for the course with buggies. I just figured that the Buggy Bunch would have the experience to deal with this. Its one thing to order parts for the year you have but when you're working with "grey area" you have to have help from the experts that have been working with this stuff for s long time and know the differences between years. I understand the theory that is being applied here with the cylinders but when it comes to the "fit ability" that's another story. I will need to go to the build sight to measure the shoes to be sure, but do believe them to be the "stock" set-up.
The IRS set up is also "dual" spring plates. So I am not sure if that will make a difference in which bushing and cylinders are require.
I will post a few pics that may be of some help.
Thanks for the help,
By Joseph S 2595 Date 2012-03-12 02:15
That is perfect with the pictures.
Yes the whole rear supension is from an 1969 and later Bug so it would use the spring plate grommets/bushings for inside one it would use a 1 7/8in ID Knobby grommet and for the outside a 1 7/8in Round grommet
I do recommend staying away from the SwayAway red urethane as the have problems with squeaks you can never get rid of.
I personally like the yellow ones that SACO/German Auto www.sacogermanauto.com sells they wear good and have very little noise.
I also use a grease called Super Lube, it is a synthetic grease #21030. It comes in a 3oz tube. It has Teflon in it.
Now there other options too. The stock rubber ones are available as a softer polyurethane ones that BugPack dealers sells.
Depending on what you are planning on doing with your buggy. If mostly street, IMHO staying with the stock rubber will give you the quietest ride.
The rear brakes shoes you want are #113609537C for a 1968 and later Bug
The rear wheel cylinder (22mm) you what to use is a #113 611 057B (this is a 1958 to 1977 front Bug wheel cylinder)
The front shoes you want are #113 609 237D which fit 1958 to 1964 Bug The end of the shoe that goes into adjuster screw is straight which should match what you have. If they have a taper on the ends they are the later type that was use on 1965 and later.t
Wheel cylinders for the front are #113 611 053B are the 17mm rear ones use a 1968 and later Bug.
With what you have brake shoes will be the same width front and rear but will have differences with the end that fits into the adjuster. The taper adjuster screw on the rear need to be incorrect position with large part of taper facing towards drum and narrow part towards axle. If installed wrong, shoes will wear out very quickly.
Also rear shoes will have slots for E-brake crossbar to fit in.
Some times front replacement shoes will have the slots too.
Something you may want to think about is installing a dual master cylinder #113 611 015 BD (part # for Varga brand made in Brazil)from a 1967 and later Bug.
Using a dual master cylinder you can mount a reservior right on top of it. The Varga brand uses one from a Volvo and the German one uses one from a VW Rabbit/Golf/Jetta.
By Thomas B 2944 Date 2012-03-13 00:56
I went to the build sight with my camera and a tape measure this evening and measured the width of the front and rear shoes and also took pictures of each shoe set. Both shoe sets are 1-1/2 inches wide.
Not sure what you are talking about when you say "taper" on the shoes? Maybe I just don't have that. I have attached pictures.
I also attached two pictures of the wheel cylinders, both front and rear. I did not note which cylinder I took out of the front or the rear. I will just have to assume that they where never switched during an earlier build. They appear to have the same shape and bolt patterns so they should interchange.
As far as the master cylinder goes I have already made its replacement must with the dual.
Do you have any idea if one of the brake kits would fit my application(s)? Is there a kit that will bridge the two years, 1960 front end and 1969 IRS.
By Joseph S 2595 Date 2012-03-14 04:26
The 3rd picture showing rear brake parts, you see the bottom edge (steel part) of brake shoes it has a taper to it (cut at angle) to match the adjuster.
On the front shoes in 4th pictures you can see where it goes into adjuster is square across the end.
As for finding a brake kit for it since you have to different years for front and rear brakes may prove to be difficult as the ones I have seen are for having the same year parts front and back.
If you have calipers you can measure the wheel cylinders ID. They look like the small ones for the rear and large one for the front on a bug. Yes they appear to be what you would need if they are the correct size.
By Thomas B 2944 Date 2012-03-14 20:14
Thanks for the come back again. I see what you are talking about on the shoes now. I wonder if there are any other difference in the shoes? I am generally against "modifying" brakes but if there are no other differences that could be and avenue to try. Comparing individually parts listed in the kit if bought separately would be over $200. I just sent off an e-mail to SoCal asking for some guidance. We shall see how well there support is!
Unfortunately I did not know about the switching of the wheel cylinders when I dismantled the brakes so I did not keep them separated as I did with shoes, springs and adjusters. I would have to assume that the larger wheel cylinder came from the front as they were the most rusted and pitted. But that is still a guess, an educated one that may or may not be correct.
My next step is to try to look up the part numbers for each individual part, for each year, and see if there are differences. If it is only one set of shoes, then maybe I could still go the route of the kit but also purchase the set of shoes that I would need that did not come in the kit. Now that's a mouthful!!! Good thing I don't have Alzheimer Disease.
I hope you followed my online rambling/thinking,
By Thomas B 2944 Date 2012-03-15 14:09
I heard back from SoCal before I left work last night. They said that they only have what is listed on the site and that I would need to order separately to get what I needed. Not exactly what I wanted to hear but kind of knew before I asked. At least they got right back to me. Well, while I was waiting for the answer to my query I research the total cost of the parts listed in their kits if purchased separately. Trying to keep thing organized for the two years of my buggy was difficult. I printed out pictures and prices of each part that I needed for my application(s) and listed the part number along with each sheet as well as the drescription, just to help keep me straight. I found that their kit would be $112.95 and the total, if purchases separately, for what I needed for my build would be $166.67 plus any shipping. Not sure what the shipping would be. Most parts were free shipping, but not all. I need to now compare with Napa here in town. I will let you know how I make out.
By Joseph S 2595 Date 2012-03-15 21:30
I would say you could presume about the wheel cylinders being the large in the front and small in the rear. Switching wheel cylinders is not something that seems to be as well known. Hydraulics theory seems to be not understood by many.
I still have a local VW parts house (Bugformance) somewhat close, 14 miles away where I can get parts.
NAPA may be the best if close to you. You can compare the parts without having to pay shipping both ways if wrong.
I have heard good things about www.mofoco.com in Wisconsin for being able to get parts.
Reading feedback on the Samba can help on finding out about who is good or bad with customer care.
By Thomas B 2944 Date 2012-03-25 21:09
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you but the job that puts food on the table and supports the big oil companies and Wall Street is getting in the way of late.
So I ordered the parts for the brakes as well as cables and a few other things that I am in need of. Napa was way out of line with price so I went with SoCal. I could not justify the cost difference to stay local. They e-mailed yesterday saying the parts were on their way. And, as par for the course I remembered something that I needed to order right after I hit the send button. Oh well, I will be ordering again.
I just posted the latest picture of the frame/pan in the "Build" section. I just need warmer weather on the weekends to be able to continue. Thanks for all the help. I'll be back with more questions as I continue on my "slow road".
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