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By Tom & Kathleen I 639 Date 2009-08-02 21:53
Alden - We have been through this not all cyclinders firing event as well.  It is probably just some bad coil packs.  Just pull the plug out, ground it to the block and see if you have spark at that plug when it is running.  If not, switch the coil packs around and try again.  Replace packs as necessary.  Hopefully, you don't have Twin Turbo heads like us and can get coil packs locally.

Something else we have done lately is to replace the temp sensor in the crossover pipe.  The water temp gage was acting weird, engine was running warm becasue the fans were not working correctly and the cold start was worse again.  Things are better now.  Not great, but better.  If we keep playing, we will get it where we want it.  Luckally, some of the old troubleshooting trick have worked on this "new fanlged" engine.  Tom
Tom & Kathleen Manxter #16, Kick-Out SS #16 & FiberFab Buggy
Manx Club #1030, CVA, RBC, SCCA
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-08-03 02:04
Thanks for the input Tom..  I did what you said and found out the coils are all ok!!!  I swaped them from side to side and checked for spark, all was good.  The problem must be fuel!  Im going to call Outback as ask how to diagnose the wiring, and maybe also swap the injectors from side to side to rule them out.

If anyone else has any suggestions, it would be great!! 

Thanks,
Alden
Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-08-03 17:15
Well....  I took out the injectors, cleaned them the best I could, put them back in and it purrs like a kitten.  Ive driven it around the block and this thing is going to be rediculous!!!  I need to button up alot of odds and ends, then she will be on the road.. 

More to follow.  Thanks guys!!!

Alden
Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2009-08-04 22:29 Edited 2009-08-05 18:23
Hey Alden,
Have you done a compression check yet? Seems strange that you have fuel and spark on one SIDE and not the other side. You may have a situation where your timing belt jumped on either the intake or exhaust on that side, so you might not have compression on that side.

If you have good compression and have verified timing, I would recommend changing one known good Coil On Plug coil from the good side to the bad side to see if the good coil is now firing on the other side.

You can also do injectors this way, but swapping injectors is a little more difficult and the chance of pinching or cutting an oring is there, so you may want to have a few orings on hand if you try that route.

Feel free to call me... I just left you a message before reading this post, but call me if you want... maybe discussing over the phone will be a little easier.

EDIT OOPS.. Just checked this thread today and found out I replied to the post on the bottom of page one. Looks like you've already gotten it all figured out! LOL. Day late and a dollar short.

Jay

Jay
By surfbeetle Date 2009-08-16 23:37
I was doing some wiring over the weekend.  I have a used Link ECU that came from a sandrail.  The harness has two wires going to where the oil sending unit is only it looks like the previous owner of the harness had it connected to a VDO style sender for both the idiot light and the VDO oil pressure.  Since I have of those senders I figured I would try it, but the alternator is in the way and as it turns out, the thread pitch of the subaru oil sender is different from the VDO sender I have for the VW engine.  Any ideas on how to connect my VDO guage and stock bug idiot light up?  Also how would I connect the stock Subaru Alternator to the Stock VW wiring harness so that the battery gets charged and the idiot light in the Speedometer will work?  Thanks.
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2009-08-18 01:56
Oh Alden, I need to take some pictures of the oil line set up I have of my VDO sending unit and the stock VW idiot light plumbing. AND I keep forgetting to check the spark plug info for you.

Is your Subaru alternator a 3 pin or a two pin? I have the three pin and can also look that info up for you tomorrow after work. I'm going to write myself a note!

Jay
By surfbeetle Date 2009-08-18 03:49
Jay, To clear up any confusion, Alden needs the spark plug info and I (Craig/Surfbeetle) need the VDO sending unit info.  I think what further confuses things is that both of us are doing VW Bugs that are the same VW Blue color.  I look forward to the oil line photos. Also, my alternator has the large white wire that goes on the alternator post plus the round connector that also has a large round wire plus three smaller colored wires, Green w/ black stripe, Black with white stripe, and solid yellow.  The VW had been converted from generator with external voltage regulator to an alternator with no external voltage regulator.
Thanks again
Craig
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2009-08-19 02:25 Edited 2009-08-19 02:28
Craig,
I think the other issue is that I really don't have much time lately, so I don't have the time to read the thread like I used to before commenting. Sorry I got you guys confused.

OK, I do have a Pic of the oil system. Basically, it's all 1/4" brass pipe fittings. Up from the block is a close nipple going into a 45. That was needed to kick the sensors toward the bracket that the AC would mount to. I did have the block going into a nipple that went into the tee, so the tee was directly above the port in the block, but the alternator would hit the stock VW sensor during belt changes, so I added the 45 deg fitting to kick the whole thing toward the bracket for the AC.

Out of the 45 is a shoulder nipple (which is why you see what looks like the octagon nut between the 45 and the tee).

The shoulder nipple sits between the 45 and the tee. Out the fwd end of the tee is a close nipple followed by another 45 for the VDO sending unit. The other end of the tee is for the stock VW sending unit.

It's a little bit funky, but it is out of the way and allows the use of both sending units without interfering with anything.

If you have any questions, just feel free to ask and hopefully I'll pay more attention to whats going on here, LOL

Jay

By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2009-08-19 02:27
Alden, the plugs I'm running are Autolite XP 3923

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you.

Jay
By surfbeetle Date 2009-08-19 05:52
Jay, thanks for posting the photo.  I see that you have used both the Subaru and VDO sending unit, I am assuming a gauge only sending unit.  I have a VDO sending unit that runs both the idiot light and gauge, is there's a reason you went with both sending units or do you think I would be okay with just the VDO sending unit and no Subaru unit? Thanks again.
Craig
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2009-08-20 02:05
Craig,
No problem on the photo. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

The VDO unit I have only operates the gauge. That's the real reason I kept the stock VW sending unit to fire off the idiot light. I figure it can't hurt to run the idiot light as a backup. Had I known VDO offered an integrated sending unit, I would have gotten that one to simplify the install.

What does the Subaru unit do? I would think as long as you have pressure and an idiot light, you should be fine. Obviously nothing is foolproof, but if you check your gauges often, you're bound to catch something amiss should things get to that point.

Jay
By @Jeff GS Date 2009-08-20 11:58
That's a neat trick on the sender mounts Jay.  Looks like you have them coming off the back of the motor, near the flywheel end?  I say that based on the water crossover manifold and location of the sensors on it.

There are two or three different locations on the block with "capped" openings in the main oil passage I'm aware of, each should be suitable for sender locations.  One is the original sender, under the alternator and PS pump mount near the timing belt.  The 2nd is more or less straight back from this, at the flywheel end (you can follow the passage front to rear by the casting shape in the engine block).  There is another threaded cap over this opening, but it is located underneath all of the PCV plumbing and a bit hard to access.  I've been told there is another oil passage on the timing belt end of the engine, somewhere up on what would be the passenger side up above the water pump somewhere?  I haven't positively located that one, it may be behind the timing belt cover?

The large steel "caps" covering these passages are a metric thread, but can be modified to work with NPT fittings.  I removed mine and simply re-threaded the inner hole with a 1/8NPT tap.  Did a very nice job and now easy to adapt standard fittings to - though I'm pretty sure VDO makes a direct fit metric-threaded sender too.

I may do something similar to Jay's idea, as the Autometer gauges I'm using don't offer a dual light/pressure sender in one unit.
Jeff
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2009-08-20 20:11
I guess I should have given a better description of the location. It's right between the alternator and where the AC compressor would have been had it still been on the car. Its on the front side close to the timing belt cover. The fittings actually just miss the AC mount to the left in the picture.

Oh where it enters the block, it's just in front of the "EJ20" casting in the block

Jay
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-08-24 17:21
Alright Guys, time for a few videos.  Please excuse the poor cell phone video quality..

68 Bug with:
EJ20T Intercooled
Ebay Magnaflow muffler
4.0 Jeep Cherokee Radiator behind the rear seat
Small 205/50/15 Tires, not lowered in the rear, stock subaru oil pan with only about 3" clearance from the ground.
OutFront.com Stinger ECU - Starts great and idles without a problem, but the map that they sent me is wayyyy too rich.  I need to go and get a cable so that I can hook the laptop up to in and lean it out...

Today was the first "real" test drive.  I took it out for about 30mins. both in town and on the highway.  It never even came close to overheating.  Keep in mind, I didn't have the decklid or apron on, nor did I have the radiator enclosed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df33knkv9u0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ph1hsye_ew
While I was driving down the road, I reached back and was amazed at the amount of cool air that was coming up from underneath the car just infront of the radiator.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a9YkAhj2Vg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vCTQGaLxSo

I am so suprised that you cant hardly hear the BOV, as it is pretty loud.

Alden
Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2009-08-24 22:22 Edited 2009-08-24 22:25
SWEET! Nice to get some video regardless of the quality. I'm happy for you. Now go out and enjoy it before the snow flies :-)

Jay

Also keep in mind as you lean it out, it's going to be a little hotter, so keep an eye on temps as  you play with the maps.
By Tom & Kathleen I 639 Date 2009-08-25 01:21
Nice.  You really need to shorten that oil pan, it is going to be a problem.  I also hope you have some good brakes!  It is so much easier putting a Subaru engine in a Buggy.  Tom
Tom & Kathleen Manxter #16, Kick-Out SS #16 & FiberFab Buggy
Manx Club #1030, CVA, RBC, SCCA
By Sandsurfer Date 2009-08-25 02:11
I would also consider something to cover your timing belt. Subaru's manual wants to keep the dust out, I can only imagine how much damage can be done is a pebble finds it's way between the belt and a cam sprocket. I know for a fact that Subi replacement valves are not cheap.
Jerry....
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-08-25 02:34
One more additional vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgO8U0LR65U
Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By surfbeetle Date 2009-08-30 19:36
Alden, what year was the 4.0 Cherokee radiator from?  The ebay link is no longer functioning. Also, what fuel pump did you use and what size fuel lines did you use and how did you run them?  The Videos look awesome, it gives me motivation to get mine going.
Thanks
Craig
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-09-06 02:20
Im not sure on the exact year, but mostly any Cherokee with the 4.0 inline six cyclinder... 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JEEP-CHEROKEE-99-00-01-4-0-L6-ALL-ALUMINUM-RADIATOR-NIB_W0QQitemZ260448432862QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item3ca3efb2de&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

Fuel pump - Walbro 255 inline with 1/2 supply and a 3/8 return feeding to the original fuel line in the tunnel.

I have got it running,  but I havent had much time to do all the little odds and ends. Also, I have been keeping my eye on a few of the STI 2.0's on ebay, already thinking of upgrading.... I believe I have an early low hp EJ-20T that is lacking what I am looking for. It still runs good, but seems to be a bit slower than what I expected, although, it couldn't sound any better!!!!!    I rode in Jay H's buggy with a late model EJ-20T and it ran awesome!!
Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-09-30 01:13 Edited 2009-09-30 01:17
Well,  its out with the old and in with the new........  :-)

The story goes like this, before I knew anything about the Subaru motors, I had came across my current Subaru motor I have and bought it. Come to find out with the recent research, it came from an early Legacy and is putting out ~150-165hp.  Now the I have the car up and running, it didn't hold a stick to Jay's "Exxon Valdez" :-) and I have been on the look out for a newer EJ20T that is packing a punch!!  (The tail tail sign of a lower HP Legacy motor is the plug on coil design that takes 2 bolts. See pictures above)

Well, I came across a 01-02 JDM EJ2O7-T STI Version 7 motor that came out of a WRX STI.  For what I've read, it comes from the factory with Forged internals, an 8,250-8,500rpm red line and 280hp in stock form!!!!   :-)  Needless to say, I bought it, yet I cant complain about the price, it was pretty reasonable!!

The motor is currently on its way and I should have it mid next week.  I hope to have it running within the next few months, we just sold our house and am in the middle of relocating which means our schedules are pretty hetic!!  Oh ya, I am planning on swaping the motors and having it running without the wife knowing what Im up to as I haven't told her that I bought another motor.....  ;-)

So, whats this mean.....  I have a nice Legacy EJ20-T motor for sale - lower hp but still respectable (Videos of the motor running are linked above via youtube) and I also have a nice 1835cc with dual Weber Carbs, all chromed engine tin, alternator all for sale...  Please let me know if anyone is interested!

Attached are a few pictures of the new motor.

Thanks, Alden

Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2009-09-30 07:23
Sweet! Nice upgrade, and to be honest... this lower H.P. Subi engine would still tear it up in a FG buggy! This engine will make a nice reliable HP monster over a stock VW any day. I can see why you were a little disappointed though.... you are hauling around a little more weight than a buggy. (Did you throw it in the classifieds section yet?)

The Exxon Valdez hasn't claimed any other victims since the fresh rebuild this spring. You and I should get together for a little run once you've got that STI nestled snugly between the tin. Hurry up and sell the evidence!

BTW.... won't your wife notice the red intake? I've heard they have a tendency to notice things like color coordination :-) better get out the silver spray paint to "complete the illusion" :-)

Jay
By surfbeetle Date 2009-09-30 15:35
Alden,
So you are saying that the engine with the two bolt coils at the spark plug is the lower output?  Also is the engine you have pictured the new higher output engine or the lower output one? 
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-10-01 03:34
Yep...... Jay is the one I blame for my outlandish spending on this old car of mine....  At least thats what I'm going to tell the wife when/if she finds out!!!  :-)  It all started with me asking for a ride....  then I was hooked!

Jay, I think we will be able to get together; I'm hoping to make it to Mid America this coming year,  for the past 5 years, I have lived only 20 miles north of Effingham Il, yet my car that I have owned for over 15yrs has never been there.. Now I am moving to Southern Illinois (about 2hrs south of Effingham) and I am hoping to get the car there this year... Its pretty ironic!!  Will the wife know what I'm up to?  I would say yes, the red intake is one sign, (I can always say I painted it red) not to mention shes pretty smart.  :-)

Craig,  the most recent pictures are of the new motor.  Yes, the coils to the best of my knowledge are the easiest and quickest way to tell the Early Legacy motor vs. the others.  I'm hope it didnt come across in a bad way, but yes, I believe you have the same motor as I have (the lower HP one).  Check out the attached pics, one is of my car, the other is of yours.

I will keep the thread posted!

Attachment: P1010071.jpg (87.8k)
Attachment: DSCN1470.jpg (61.6k)
Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By surfbeetle Date 2009-10-01 04:41
Alden,
Thanks so much for the info.  Yes it seems that you and I are in the same boat so to speak.  No worries, nothing came across in a bad way.  I am learning just like you are.  Here's the ironic thing in my life with regard to the subaru engines... Back in the early '70s, Subaru began importing cars in California and my father worked at an Olds dealer that picked up the local Subaru franchise.  To support these new cars, he was given shop manuals written only in Japanese.  He doesn't speak or read that language.  He ended up becoming the best Subaru mechanic in SoCal with a huge wait list of clients.  My parents have only had Subaru cars since then yet I don't know much about the engines.  I was into VW's. Oh well, I plan to get mine running soon.
I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we are definitely waiting to see the new engine in your car.
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-11-03 19:32
I got the new STI motor a couple weeks ago and finally had some time yesterday to fiddle with the swap of the older EJ20T for the newer EJ20T!!  After about 4hrs, I got the one out of the car, all the non needed stuff on the new motor removed, and swapped common parts from the old to the new motor.  It is now sitting there waiting for me to throw the new STI into the car.  I will have to do some wiring as there are some small differences.....

Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2009-11-04 01:33
OK, I'm officially jealous of your garage! Holy smokes you've got some decent room there! :-)

Jay
By surfbeetle Date 2009-11-04 04:49
Ditto...  I am very interested in knowing the difference in power that you get from the new engine.  I hope to get mine finally running over winter break.  We'll see if that happens.  Who was the vendor you got it from? I am interested in what the new motor costs vs. the old one. I think I paid 750 for mine.
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-11-10 02:34
Well, I was able to get a bit more work done this past weekend....  Got the STI motor installed with some minor things to hook up still.

Oh, I got a header off Ebay for $100 shipped to my door, looking on the net, lots of guys dont have too good of things to say about the no name ebay headers; but I must say, I am impressed with the quality and fitment of it!!  If anyone interested, it recommend these guys, search subaru.....

http://stores.ebay.com/OptionImport-Performance-Parts_Exhaust-Header_W0QQ_fsubZ3QQ_sidZ106802610QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em322

Attached are a few pics.....

Oh, no need to be jealous on the garage space - I wish it were, but its not my garage;  its a friends who is being awful nice letting me use it since we just sold out house and are garageless........  But yes, there is a ton of room!!!!!!

More updates to follow.....

Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By surfbeetle Date 2009-11-10 16:21
I guess it's good that you're in someone else's garage, more motivation for you to keep on it and get it done.

I went to the link for the header you bought, they don't seem to go back far enough for the older/slower motor that I have.  Do you know if that header fits the other EJ20s like your old one or mine?  My motor came without the crossover exhaust pipe and I either need one of those or a new header like what you have.

Did you turn your water tube around?  I didn't realize that you could do that?  Does this cause issues with coolant flow?  I was planning on running hose back to the radiator.
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2009-11-11 02:51
When you talk to your buddy again, ask him if he wants some more friends. :-) (You can let him know how much I appreciate all the room he has. Glad the build is coming along!

Jay
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-11-16 13:34
Craig - to the best of my knowledge, you can get a header for any EJ20 with a turbo and it will fit your motor..  Yes, I turned the water crossover 180.   You can read up on it at Outfront Motorsports website. It has worked great for my application; you can also turn the intake 180 too..  The price between the two motors is....well pretty substantial!!!  but the power should be near double.  I had the chance to ride in Jays buggy with a newer EJ20T and it seriously get with the program! The first EJ20t i had, i would say ran slightly better than my 1835 with dual webers for example.

Jay, when I see him I will let him know - whats scary is the car is sitting in maybe a 1/4 of the room available..:-)

I think this swap is going to go well, with little hiccups...  The only problem I see is the the upper left cam cover, it buldges out allot more than the other motor, this is due to the varible valve timing this motor has.  I am not to confident that I will be able to sneek it below the rear apron.  But, I will not be running the VVT, so maybe I can get a different cam pulley and the older cover and make it fit!!!  Anybody know if this is possible?

Another update later, out to the garage I go!
Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By surfbeetle Date 2009-11-18 05:42
Alden, thanks for the info. I'll have double check the header.  I just put my intake manifold back the way it was originally. I won a newer intercooler from Outfront a couple of weeks ago on ebay, $9.99 plus 11.25 shipping.   It was a stock intercooler like your new engine. I plan to mount it upside down and use a S pipe down to the turbo and a U pipe to the intake.  As for the waterpipe, I am seriously considering doing the turn.  I am going to get my radiator before I make the final decision on that one.

My 1835cc had 48 IDA webers and 12.5 to 1 compression and was fast, 14 second in the 1/4 mile.  If my ej20 is at least that fast, I will be happy for now.  The 1835 required way too much maintenance and race fuel to keep it going.  I took a look on ebay, I saw the price difference.  I want to redo the paint and bodywork on my car before I spend that much.  I'll probably rebuild my engine eventually and make it faster. 
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-12-08 17:18
Well, I have found that it is going to be very difficult to tuck the ACVS below the apron.  I have even added another shim to the rear body mount trying to leverage as much room as I can below the rear apron.  It is now to the point that I dont like the tire to fender clearance and the way the car looks.  I am planning to get taller rear tires, to decrease the amount of room from the fender but also to gain some from the header to ground.  The pics below have the apron and lid on, but its not truely on yet.  I am not happy with the fitment of apron yet, but we are getting there. 

I still have some wiring to complete, but I dont forsee that posponing the test drive by too much longer!!!

Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2009-12-09 12:05
Alden,
I have to say.. I personally think larger rear tires will do wonders. 1. gear ratio will be better suited for the engine. 2. you'll fill up the rear wheel wells a little bit better if that's the look you are going for. 3. you'll gain a little of what looks to be needed ground clearance under the exhaust.

Overall, it looks like Santa stopped by a little early and brought you a shoehorn! Nice work! It looks great to me in the pictures.

Jay
By surfbeetle Date 2009-12-09 17:56
Looks good.  Is your goal to not have the decklid propped out?  The black and white one on aussieveedubbers and NAISOC has a propped out decklid and looks great.  With mine, I want to keep it as hidden as possible with a stock positioned decklid.  How much space is between the header and the ground? Looks too close for my comfort level.
By Alden A 305 Date 2009-12-09 22:48
No, I dont mind the top of the lid being poped out, that is how I have had it for 15yrs with the a/c engine...

Header clearance = approx. 3" and am about 1.75" before I hit the bump stop.  So that means on flat pavement with the suspension bottomed out, I will still have 1.75" clearance....  "But how often is the pavement nice and level without any irregularities???"  :-) The larger rear tires will help this a little as well. 

What size tires do you have surfbeetle? Currently I have 205/50/15 and think I will go up to 205/60's or 65's.

Back in the day, I had some dual mufflers (see below) which were this close to dragging, yet managed not to tear them up.  Hope I have as much luck with this set up.

Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By surfbeetle Date 2009-12-09 23:05
I had the same exhaust on my A/C motor, used to drag them all of the time.. I plan to use the same kind of mufflers from it in the same spot, I need run a pipe to it from the turbo.  As for tires, I believe that they are 195-95-15s, I plan to put some 205's on my BRM copies. I do know that my tires were the same diameter as the stock 165s.  I also have toyed with maybe going taller because of the body shims.
By Brad H 1498 Date 2009-12-10 00:38
215/65/15s are an inch taller than 165/15s, 26" vs 25", and would help getting all that power to the ground. Nice looking car, nice work.

BTW 3-1.75=1.25 :-) .......

brad
By Alden A 305 Date 2010-04-01 01:42
Well, on Monday, I finally had some time to get to the garage and work on my little project...  Long story short - this thing is stupid fast!!!!  It is going to eat up the stock tranny in no time!  I only had a chance to take it down the road and back, maybe a 1/2 mile total, and was able to get on it some, yet it pulled so hard in 3rd gear!  I am impressed!

I am running the Stinger ECU, I have the idle screw on the intake backed out all the way, yet it is idling at 2000rpm.  Can anyone help me and tell me why?  I suspected possibly a vacuum leak on the intake, but I cant seem to find anything.  I have never owned a turbo car/motor before, what would a characteristic be to idle high?

More pics and video's to come in the future!!

Thanks guys!
Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2010-04-01 02:26
Hey Alden... Happy to hear you got her out for a run! A few things to check: Make sure your throttle isn't binding. Check the length of the throttle cable that it is not keeping the throttle plate backed off. With the idle screw backed all the way out, is the throttle plate still held open a little? If the throttle isn't binding, the cable is long enough to allow more movement in the closed direction, and as you say the screw is out all the way, you may need to bend the tab a little to allow the plate to go closed a little more.

It may be the engine timing/ecu. Hopefully Tom and Kathleen may be able to shed some light on this idle subject.

I'm assuming you didn't find a vac leak. I've always had good luck with using carb cleaner around joints and gaskets. If the engine speed varies when you spray the joint, you've got a vac leak.

Jay
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2010-04-01 02:26
Hey... When do I get a ride? :-)

Jay
By Tom & Kathleen I 639 Date 2010-04-01 10:52
On Kathleen's car, I believe the idle speed is up to the mechanical setting on the throttle body, not the ECU.  I have been able to adjust it with the screw that moves the butterfly.  Jay may be on the right track witht the throttle cable.  Disconect it completely, and start from there.  Tom
Tom & Kathleen Manxter #16, Kick-Out SS #16 & FiberFab Buggy
Manx Club #1030, CVA, RBC, SCCA
By surfbeetle Date 2010-04-01 14:43
Tom and Jay are correct, as for having a Turbo, it would make no difference at an idle as you are not making any boost at that point. With no boost, you are not force feeding the air to the engine so it should behave just like a naturally aspirated motor when idling.  Where the turbo and it's piping come in is when you are looking for boost leaks when under power.  This can be done by fashioning an adapter out of plumbing parts and pressurizing the system (with the engine off) from an air compressor at a safe psi.  This will also show vacuum leaks as it would force air out the leaking area.  I had to do this on my Cummins Turbo Diesel to check for a leak. Check all of the physical settings as mentioned above and then head into the electronics.  If you don't have carb cleaner, WD40 can be used as well to find vacuum leaks.
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2010-04-03 01:01
I wonder if the throttle position sensor may also have something to do with higher idle. If the sensor was not varying voltage, then it might look to the ECU that the throttle was opened some and compensate by adding fuel.

I would think that would simply make it run richer, rather than faster, but it may be another thing to look at.

Also... does your engine have the TUMBLERS between the manifold and block? I have mine deleted, but I believe they play a part in engine idle speed. I have no idea if Outfront's stinger utilizes the stock tumblers or if Outback requires a delete aslo, but that is another consideration.

Surfbeetle.... When you say having a turbo and it making no difference as far as a leak goes, I believe you are referring to the intake upstream of the throttle body. Wouldn't a leak at any point between the throttle body and the head cause an increase in engine speed?

I understand what you mean about a leak in the turbo plumbing to the throttle body though. it truely doesn't make a difference.... you would just be bleeding off some of your compressed air, but it wouldn't be metered because the available pressure in the intake is what the MAP sensor is telling the computer to fuel for.

Jay
By Alden A 305 Date 2010-04-03 01:21
Thanks for all the replys guys!  I will be checking everything and will let you know what I find.

I didn't have much time to diagnose this the other day, but if anything, it might just be the good old throttle being stuck a tad bit open.  I will specifically disconect the throttle cable and see what I get.  Back to the basics!  :-)

I also plan on spraying the interface of the intake to the block with some carb cleaner or WD-40 and see if that changes anything.

Jay - That is a good point on the TPS, when I had it hooked up to the pc,  I  noticed the voltage value of it and I believe it is working properly.  Excellent point though.

I did go and get two new tires for the rear yesterday to gain a bit more ground clearance for the exhaust.  I had the 205/50/15's and went with 205/65/15's.  We will see what it looks like soon enough.

Thanks guys!
Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2010-04-03 04:24
I did go and get two new tires for the rear yesterday to gain a bit more ground clearance for the exhaust.

LMAO... I worked with a guy who wasn't the brightest bulb on the tree. He complained from time to time about his car's exhaust hitting on speed bumps. One day, he says with a smile that he fixed his exhaust. It no longer hit on speed bumps.

Turned out he put larger tires on his car! :-)

My buddy and I were joking that he would buy larger tires for one side of his car to fix an alignment problem. Good times... Your post made me think of that and I had to share.

Best,
Jay
By ron w 1919 Date 2010-04-03 18:21 Edited 2010-04-03 18:25
any vacuum leak between the maf and engine would make the engine run leaner,possibly make it idle higher.does your ecu controls iac motor or it is fixed with minimum air screw?you can also use a stethoscope by removing the amplifier from the hose and then place the open end of the hose where ever you want and hear the leak.also a quick scan of the ecu should show a zero value on the iac if there is a vacuum leak.also tps should show off idle value if the throtle isn't closed.if the iac is ecu controlled then it must be disabled before carb spray test as it will try to compensate for idle changes.if there is a vacuum leak the O2 sensor would read lean as air is by passing the maf! hope this helps
By surfbeetle Date 2010-04-05 16:00
Jay, you are correct, I should have clarified a bit more.  Between the Throttle body and the head, under a no boost condition, a leak would increase idle speed.  Any leaks before the Throttle body, would have little effect if any.
By Alden A 305 Date 2010-04-06 03:58 Edited 2010-04-06 04:05
Well, after one heck long of a day, I was able  to drive the bad boy 2hrs south to our new home.  I had a few hic cups along the way,  but I will get into that later!

Here is a pic as we were getting ready to roll out.....  It now has 225-65-15 rear tires which looks alot better than what I thought it was going to look like.. These were needed to gain additional clearance of the exhaust-pavement.  The stance ended pretty decent.  Second, I ran the full ride with the laptop next to me to monitor the vitals of the engine!  More to come later!

Thanks for the replys!

Mattoon Illinois
www.phillipsprocycle.com
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