By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2008-01-25 00:32
What is the approximate weight difference from a VW engine to a Subi engine? Would be nice to see how well the swing axle is indexed by placing weight on the back seat before installing a subi engine and having to mess with setting ride height. I'd like to get it close before the engine is installed.
By @Jeff GS Date 2008-01-25 01:32
Outfront states the EJ 4-cylinder motors with turbo and intercooler come in at 300lbs. I'd guess a N/A motor would be about 15lbs or so less?
According to this site (has to be one of the most comprehensive lists of engine weights I've ever seen!):
They show a dressed VW, DH cooling, dual Kadrons, Monza exhaust, flywheel, clutch etc @ 250lbs. Most sites list the VW engine ~200lbs - but don't say what's on it? (Cooling tin, fan, alternator, exh. etc.?) I'm more inclined to believe the ~250 number.
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2008-01-25 13:07
Thanks Jeff. I know placing weight over the swingarm is a lot different than hanging an engine off the tranny, but I want to get some idea how well I planned for extra weight of an engine swap. Thanks.
By Mel Adjusted Date 2008-01-26 09:58
If you look at the Subaru engine as it'll be installed in a Buggy or rail you'll see the weight is only 30-40 lbs different. When I say as it'll be installed in a Buggy or rail I mean minus power steering pump, A/C compressor, belts and cast iron exhaust (75 lbs) the weight difference is the cooling system. I have a rear (VW) rail that had a 6 rib 002 transmission with bus disc breaks converted to mid-engine Subaru with a Subaru 5 speed transmission that weigh's 10 lbs less with the Subaru setup. I wish I still had the VW engine, I'd like to weigh it and see the difference. Maybe Paul still has one sitting around. I know one thing the power difference is majorand more than makes up for the minor weigh difference.
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By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2008-01-26 13:29
Thanks for the info. I'm not concerned about the weight difference really. I know the power will more than make up for any extra weight it has to haul around. I'm running a swing transaxle and when indexing the arms, I set it up a little on the high side. I did this because I was originally planning to throw my Corvair 140 HP (6 Cyl) on it.
I drove around last summer with the tires wearing on the outside edge slightly. When I had two kids in the back, it would ride on the inside on the tires slightly. I'm hoping that I figured correctly for the subaru engine is all.
I'm running a 1600 DP with dual kadrons, and generator. I am not running the lower cooling tins or the front or rear tin that would seal up a bug engine bay.
It will be interesting to see just how well the suspension settles with a little extra weight. I'm hoping I figured well enough to put about 1000 miles on it before I can do any tweaking with the height.
I think I'll be OK though.
By @Jeff GS Date 2008-01-26 14:47 Edited 2008-01-26 16:50
Jay, ideally you'd "hang" the weight off the back of the car, just like the engine. That cantilevered engine weight is going to affect torsion setting - so duplicating the position of the extra weight is crucial for accurate mock-up. I'm sure cooling system weight is Not part of the numbers above though (except for the VW) - so depending on where the radiator is located it may have some effect on the rear torsion settings too.
In the end it pretty much becomes trial and error anyway! You might also consider running slightly larger torsion bars to help compensate for the extra weight? Unfortunately, I believe the SAW bars make a pretty big jump up in size over stock for their lightest bar, and not sure what OEM bars were used for the swing-axle cars that might be a little larger than the std. Beetle? I'd think you might want to go up a couple of mm in diameter?
Interestingly, if I recall correctly the Corvair also comes in around 300lb in Buggy dress - one of the reasons it was so popular (not much heavier than the VW engine).
By Southpaw Date 2008-01-28 13:58
Jay ,Good Morning,Maybe make a mock-up frame to fit in your tranny bolt holes and use bar bell weights.? Glen
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By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2008-01-28 15:39
Right now, I have the 1600 DP installed. It looks like I'm going to be OK. I did throw some additional weight over the rear decklid (to get it back as far as possible) the suspension settled slightly, and I think I'm going to be OK.
I know there is no substitution for the real thing, but I like to do my homework, if you know what I mean.
I should have mentioned this in my first post, but the big-picture here is this: I am going to be doing a subi engine swap at Mid America. Before you all wonder how this is possible to do in a weekend... I am getting an engine from Dune Engines, LLC (Owned by Paul). This plan is for the engine and radiator to be one unit ready for install. Paul and I have been discussing preps. I am going to wire the buggy ahead of time as much as possible.
At this point, I am wondering if there are any good shops in Effingham who can pull off a wheel alignment for a beetle chassis. I recently installed a lowered front beam and had to address a worn tie rod end so the alignment needs to be done. I may as well wait for the extra weight to be hung and do it there if I can.
Thanks for everyone's thoughts and suggestions so far!
By Mel Adjusted Date 2008-01-29 00:59
Well if anyone can pull this off on a weekend it would be Dune Engines LLC. Wish I was there to lend a helping hand... sounds fun
At my age.. Everything I buy comes with a lifetime guarantee..
By @Jeff GS Date 2008-01-29 12:56
Cool! You guys be sure to take pics of the conversion progress - and better yet finish up with a youtube film of the first fire-up and test drive! Man, that should create some real interest in doing these conversions!
By Jay H (X-20) (ManxVair CC) Date 2008-01-31 00:56
I decided to start a new thread about the "build" (swap) here:
By dunelimo Date 2008-02-02 08:45 Edited 2008-02-02 08:48
A few years back I weighted some engine's stright out of a buggy and going into a buggy
complete type I Beetle engine in a buggy stock weighs 99 kilo
complete type I Beetle engine in a buggy with twin webers weighs 104 kilo
complete type IV engine in a buggy converted to upright with a Porsche cooling system and webers weighs 111 kilo
A subaru N/A engine can get some unnecessary weight removed "power steering unit, air conditioner unit,
large cast iron supporting bracket, 2 engine mounts, and 2 cast iron exaust manifolds, on the scales thay are 22.5 kilo's of weight being lost
On the Funco site they state that a VW typeI turbo engine is the same weight as a Subi N/A but does not include rad and lines
Shortly I will be fitting another Subi engine complete and with a Cat and muffler, I will put it on the scales and see what it weights
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