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Previous Next Up Topic Engines / Subbug - Subaru Power / New Link to share - Bremar Auto (27056 hits)
By @Jeff GS Date 2007-12-10 22:08
These are the guys that make the Subaru WRX Transaxle 4WD to 2WD/FWD conversion bits.

This allows you to convert a standard WRX (5-speed 4WD) transaxle to 2WD and use in a mid-engine configuration.

By Mel Adjusted Date 2007-12-10 22:46
I have that kit plus one I made... I like there's better than mine. Brett Longhurst at Bremar helped me setup the transmission and shifting like the Saker setup. The car I setup as a mid-engine was a rear engine car converted to mid-engine. What a difference in handling and accelleration.
At my age.. Everything I buy comes with a lifetime guarantee..
By @Jeff GS Date 2007-12-11 01:09
Lilgeico - it sounds like you've been around a few Subaru transaxles, so.....

What do you think is the possibility of flipping the Subaru trans upside down and running it rear engine?

I've seen several conversations about guys asking about flipping the ring gear, somehow thinking it's "just like" an old VW swingaxle.......
But I gather there isn't enough room inside the trans to put the ring gear on the other side of the pinion.

But... common practice to flip a trans upside down to run mid-engine.  Why not the other way?  Flip the Suby tranny and run in a rear engine buggy?

Certainly some issues to overcome - the drain plug, figuring out the new correct gear oil height, maybe starter placement and shift linkage details to deal with.  All SOP for the guys running Porsche G50's or 930 trannys in their hot-rod kit cars.  Not to mention just about every formuila car with Hewland or other similar transaxle - they all run in an "upside down" configuration.  I guess the biggest issue might be figuring out how to bolt it back onto the engine, mayby needing an adapter of some sort?

By Mel Adjusted Date 2007-12-11 07:53 Edited 2007-12-11 07:55
The flipping is doable, but I like your idea of flipping the ring gear... I have a photo of a split 5 speed and it looks doable. I only have one 5 speed and 2 6 speeds or i'd split one and see. I'll look around the junk yards and see if I can pick one up and see if it's possible. Even with alittle machine work would be ok if it would work. There tougher than any VW transmission.. I've never blown one and I'm hard on them. Flipping one would place the starter smack dab on the bottom which would still be higher than the oil pan.

If someone would tell me how to post pictures i'd post a picture of the transmission
At my age.. Everything I buy comes with a lifetime guarantee..
By @Jeff GS Date 2007-12-11 12:33
Hmmm... then again, looking at this picture I don't think the ring gear is "flippable" - looks to be a hypoid set-up (at least I think that's what its called?) - the ring and pinion are not aligned with each other.  I think this means that to move the ring gear to the other side would require a reverse cut ring and pinion, ie: not feesibly possible.

But flipping the whole trans upside down.... might be worth looking into.

How does this trans work in an off-road application - don't you use them in a sand buggy?  Wondering how the standard gearing works out for larger off road tire sizes (or big paddles)?

On posting pics - I first host them on Photobucket.  Then you copy the direct link (http location) in photobucket, go back to your DBA posting and use/click the img feature above the posting box.  Jut paste the image location within the img boxes.

By @Jeff GS Date 2007-12-11 13:03
On second thought, probably flipping the trans upside down might not be that great of an idea?  Looking at the above picture, even a very low oil level in the trans would have the input shaft submerged all the time, where-as in the normal orientation it probably isn't.  While the input shaft may seal OK for a while, I'm not sure that seal is designed to ride in a submerged fashion all the time?  I can imagine, in the normal orientation the gear oil mostly covers the ring and pinion gears and lower shaft, which is totally buried in the trans.

Pure speculation - until someone tries it and proves one way or another what works or doesn't.

By @Jeff GS Date 2007-12-11 13:36
FWIW, a pic I have of a WRX trans showing some dimensions.  I'm not quite sure which portion at the rear gets removed for the Bramar conversion?  Just the tail portion?  That would help to shorten it up some.

By Mel Adjusted Date 2007-12-11 17:58 Edited 2007-12-11 23:18
Here's the split case I was talking about

I also have Bremar's install instructions but I can't seem to get it to post. It's a very simple swap.
I went out and looked at the transmission and both halfs look like a mirror of each other and the only thing off-set is the shifting rod and shift forks. Everything else is on centerline.

Whats the secret in posting pictures?

At my age.. Everything I buy comes with a lifetime guarantee..
By dunelimo Date 2007-12-12 09:27
What it needs is someone in the tranny industry to make an aftermarket ring and pinion around  5 to 1 to convert it to a rear engine/gearbox confiquration and then you would be able to run 31'' + tires, there are aftermarket R & P for VW boxes why not Subi ? it would  be a cheap strong 5 speed box that all the offroad buggy guys and sandrail guys would go for, the next gear box close to that would be a mendi which cost $$$$ I don't know that there are R&P available for the Porsche 5 speed to run 31'' tires at good RPMs and its a prety expensive box to start with
By @Jeff GS Date 2007-12-12 12:05
I think the biggest problem is the axis of the pinion shaft (if carried as an imaginary line through the ring gear carrier) doesn't fall on the axis of the ring gear.  They're offset from each other, and I think that's what make is a hypoid gearset.  In this case you'd need a reverse cut ring and pinion, and having followed some other transaxle discussions making such a gearset is a major undertaking.  Not that the equipment or expertise isn't out there, but the volume required for such specialty gears makes it a very expensive proposition.  The V8 Corvair guys have wanted such a gearset for years (decades?) but tooling up for it has always been too much $$$ for the relatively small volume required to meet the demand.
By Mel Adjusted Date 2007-12-12 15:17
Mike your right... the Mendiola would be the next step but $$$$$$$$$. The Subaru 5speed's I'm running are 4.44:1 but I don't run 31" tires. Much smaller.
If someone was to make the demand I'm sure someone woiuld make ring and pinion for the Subie.
At my age.. Everything I buy comes with a lifetime guarantee..
By Paul Moran (DBA Architect) Date 2007-12-14 00:17
If the R&P was flipped, with the engine in the rear, could we have a 4WD buggy?

I'm thinking for a lower HP vehicle where the front wheels would not be coming off the ground. 4WD doesn't help much with 2 in the air.

What model and year Subaru's have the 5 speed AWD transaxle that we are looking for?  Albert mentioned the SVX came in a FWD configuration - I assume this would work as well. 

How many different version R&P gears would have to be made to cover the available 5 speeds?  Is this like most of the other Subaru parts where one R&P is used on a number of models over a number of years?

Chicago, IL
EMPI Imp 1002 ('69)/Subaru EJ20 Turbo/LinkPlus ECU
By Mel Adjusted Date 2007-12-15 21:36
I think but don't quote me, all the 5 speed Subaru transmissions are the same expect the quality of the gears. Meaning the WRX and STi's have real strong gears, whereas the lesser powered engines have weaker gears. All the Subaru engines will bolt directly to any Subaru transmission.

I was telling Paul, I'd like to see someone with the $$$ and desire to build a modern Buggy along the Manx or Empi lines but Mid-engine. Kinda like a "Saker" buggy, a real Porsche killer. My one rail (past tense) would smoke Vettes and Vipers all day with no problem.
The real good point about using a Subaru transmission is they were designed for a car weighing 3,000 lbs, and using one in a 1,500 lb car wouldn't be putting a strain on it. Also using a Subaru automatic with a hi-stall torque convertor and a IPT paddle shift setup would be awsome.

I've been running a IPT for over 2 years and it's like a Timex. I cant say that for the Mendeola.
At my age.. Everything I buy comes with a lifetime guarantee..
By @Jeff GS Date 2007-12-16 16:04
What's your experience with the Mendola Lilgeico?  I've read about some gear oil starvation with extended wheelies, but otherwise thought they were pretty much the only game in town for the mega-power sand buggy crowd?  Not sure how that would translate over to a road-use only car??  But seems like it would work well there as well?  Lots of gear ratios to select from.

Your thoughts mirror mine with the "Saker" buggy.  Except mine is based on an original mid-engine buggy, the Deserter GS and is what in my mind would (or could) have been a continuation of the original design, but with more "upscale" and modern suspension and drivetrain.  As this is the first time I've "designed" an independent suspension system, it's been a real challenge to try and get it right "as assembled", but I believe I've got a good overall design and it should handle and drive very well.
With the Subaru engine, I know it'll have good power right out of the gate, but I've always got the option down the road to build up a nice longblock, bigger turbo, etc. and bump up the power if it seems necessary.  :-)
My 914 5-speed should be up to the task of transferring the power and provide good ratios for acceleration, cruising and the occasional burnout....  But to do it again I'd probably go with the full Subaru engine and transaxle combination.

Still the biggest hang-up for a mid-engine buggy IMHO, is finding a suitable upright for the rear suspension in a mid-engine application.  The optimum would be a nice aluminum formula car upright, but they tend to run a few $$$ to get all set-up with bearings and axles/flanges.  Most of the "home-made" suspension uprights look a bit cumbersome and heavy.  Even with my efforts to go as light as possible with the chromoly Chassis Shop uprights (which are fairly lightweight), aluminum calipers, etc. I've still got a good 50lbs/side without the wheel/tire.  That's pretty heavy for a lightweight car like a fiberglass buggy or similar 1500lb car.  Rear race cars shoot for about 50lbs/corner total - with wheel and tire and everything!

By Mel Adjusted Date 2007-12-16 21:41 Edited 2007-12-17 18:09
Oh Boy Jeff, this could really get into a "Transmission 101" class. In desert racing all the hotties run automatics. Myself I prefer the automatic for serious driving. The Mendeola is a great transmission but has it's weak points and I found them all. They aren't the only kid on the block.
Now depending on what you want, be it automatic or manual. I might add here all Indy, F1, most Drag racers, top Desert racers and even your Monster wheel trucks use automatics. That has to tell you something. For your reading enjoyment I've added a few sites for you to read. Except for the Subaru transmission, all the aftermarket transmissions are expensive. I've found the Subaru transmission will equal or beat alot of them and alot cheaper. I've been running a IPT transmission with a hi-stall torque convertor and paddle shift for 2 years now and haven't had 1 problem, and trust me when I say I'm hard on equipment, I'm hard. If it can be broke, I'll break it. Here's how I see it, If it don't break, don't screw with it.

I like the Deserter GS looks but I'd like to see it more streamlined. With a modern Subaru powered Buggy you'll have very high speeds at the push of the pedal. Like I've had my rail going over (GPS) 170 MPH and it gets a bit windy at that speed. Being were in the dream mode design 2 different body styles, long and short. I'd like to run a twin engine EJ20 Subaru that would kill anything with wheels. Like under 1,500 lbs and 1,500 HP. Something to really get the blood flowing and your knuckles white.

It wouldn't be much harder to build the suspension like the F1 cars. A little research, a bit of machine work and you'd have a car that would handle like a dream. The only problem would be street tires that could handle that monster.
With a little foam and fiberglass we could come up with anything. Just need to find a engineer (maybe Bremar) to come up with something.
At my age.. Everything I buy comes with a lifetime guarantee..
By Terry F Date 2007-12-24 22:17 Edited 2007-12-25 07:36
If you guys haven't seen this one, (I think a link was posted before in another thread).
I would have a lot of interest in this if I didn't have a Dave Folts Mid-engine transaxle with MSE sequential shifter already.

Edit: that should say "In-line" shifter, not sequential...
By Mel Adjusted Date 2007-12-31 08:03
Have any of you used a AJ Speedshift?
At my age.. Everything I buy comes with a lifetime guarantee..
By Terry F Date 2007-12-31 21:46
I have it bookmarked. Hydraulic driven sequential shifter. It does rear or mid engine applications, and you can choose between forward or backwards for up-shift direction. Looks great IF it isn't a leaker...

By Mel Adjusted Date 2008-01-01 18:25
AJ and I have been talking about making a electric solenoid shifter. Much simpler and very quick. No cables, no linkage or hydraulic to mess with, just 2 push pull solenoids and some buttons or paddles. If I ever get enough time I'll draw it all out and try to post it.
At my age.. Everything I buy comes with a lifetime guarantee..
By dunelimo Date 2008-02-17 02:44
Does anyone have a pic of the shortened Subi box or have the diamension ?
Would like to compare it to a VW box for length and fitting it in as a tail drager
By Mel Adjusted Date 2008-02-17 04:43 Edited 2008-02-17 22:16
If you wait till tomarrow I'll get a tape measure and measure a Subaru transmission and one of you VW boys will have to measure a VW trans.

As promised... From the bellhousing ti the backing plate it's 26 1/2"... Thats for a converted transmission.. Now one of you guys with a VW transmission measure them and post it here
At my age.. Everything I buy comes with a lifetime guarantee..
By dunelimo Date 2008-02-18 04:52
A bus 2 liter 091 box is 22'' long end to end but not counting the nose/shiftrod part that sticks out
By Mel Adjusted Date 2008-02-18 05:06
I know for a fact that the Subaru 5 speed transmission will handle 5-600 HP and the automatic will handle 900 HP and can be converted to paddle shift on the steering wheel.

Now if you use a FWD rather than a AWD transmission it makes a excellant mid-engine setup, and in a light buggy or rail almost bullet proof.
At my age.. Everything I buy comes with a lifetime guarantee..
By dunelimo Date 2008-02-18 05:48
I am thinking in a duel sport dune buggy as a tail drager with 3x3-5x3 arms :-)
How is the linkage operated---rod, cable, hydrolic ?
Previous Next Up Topic Engines / Subbug - Subaru Power / New Link to share - Bremar Auto (27056 hits)

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